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Post by Oneiros on Feb 8, 2018 8:55:57 GMT
OR: "On the nature of monsters"
Showdown in the Archives. And we learn just what kind of mastermind Elias really is. Or maybe just scratch the surface. Maybe be careful when compelling the questions, you may not appreciate the answers...
So, we get some explanation for what's going on, we see the Institute gang kinda back together and with some new faces to battle the Unknowing... That's good, right? And Daisy didn't kill anyone, so hooray?
From our standpoint, it's been really interesting to see the theories being bandied around and speculation on what was going to happen and who might die... hope you found that resolution interesting. But as for #RQGaming, we appear to have come to something of a crossroads for our Archivist. Whilst he's not going to turn his back on his powers or role, the question of 'Where Do We Go From Here?' seems to be writ large across their futures. And just what kind of 'use' will Elias have for Daisy?
Anyone in need of more red string?
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 8, 2018 13:09:43 GMT
*sound of excited unholy screeching* cough-cough I mean, yay, awesome episode!  What a question, though, we always need more red string! XD  So many things to say here. First off, nice that none of them died (yet). Elias' blissful reaction to being compelled was really interesting and fun to hear. This confirms that this power is quite pleasant for the people it's directed at. Also interesting to know that Gertrude never tried it on him. Did she know so much about the other powers and how to fight them while being strangely ignorant about her own power or did she just never want to know anything Elias knew/hid? If Elias told the truth about everyone dying should the Archive or himself be destroyed/killed then she either wasn't aware of this particular important detail or she was ready to die if it meant fighting against the powers. Although I tend towards believing she didn't know, because she didn't sound as if she was about to die of old age or illness soon, so she could've done much more in this regard alive. If Elias told the truth about this, that is. He is very good at drawing people into the fold and safeguarding himself. No doubt a skill that's part of his job for Beholding, but (assuming he's crucial to everyone's survival) it's with a less sinister motivation than one could expect. Which would make his caring sounding talks with Tim and Jon less of a veiled threat and more genuine good will. Or he's even worse, if this isn't how it normally works in Beholding's Archives and he made himself indispensable by conducting a ritual of sorts to ensure his survival. Which would make him more evil, but certainly also mean he's even cleverer than already shown. XD All in all, so much more to learn and still plenty to speculate about. Nice! So, our Archivist leveled up a bit, but it's still quite a ways to a boss fight. More grinding's ahead. XD For all the 'reassuring' talk Elias answer whether he's still human was definitely a no in my book. Everyone who gets a title attributed to a servant of the entities certainly isn't really as soon as they develop their powers. I'm actually quite happy that Basira is now tied to the Archive as well since this probably means we get to hear her more often again. Daisy sure has a real test of her allegiance to Basira now. In gaming terms she's the best fighter and kind of the only tank of the group who can now storm the enemies and guard the 'squishy' squad. Nice, evil solution to her threatening. Martin was apparently very happy to see Jon again, so maybe their relationship will be rather friendly in the future. Assuming that Jon drops his disdain towards him. Can't see Tim liking Jon ever again after actually knowing he'll die if he leaves the Archive, especially since Jon was the one getting him to take this job. Ouch. It's very nice to know that the Unknowing is supposed to make this world closer to the reality of the Stranger. I wonder how this would look like? And how the ritual would go down. Dancing skin-suits were already mentioned, but what else? So excited to hear more, as always! |
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 10, 2018 0:34:55 GMT
I was truly puzzled by the lack of response to this fantastic episode. And then I went over to look at the subreddit and realized that everyone seems to have wandered off to over there. I'm really sad about this since I feel insecure engaging in threads on sites like reddit.  |
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liraven
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Post by liraven on Feb 11, 2018 22:43:20 GMT
I was truly puzzled by the lack of response to this fantastic episode. And then I went over to look at the subreddit and realized that everyone seems to have wandered off to over there. I'm really sad about this since I feel insecure engaging in threads on sites like reddit. Hi there! I just got caught up to the podcast a couple weeks ago. I've been looking through the subreddit and didn't see the official forum until yesterday. I totally understand where you're coming from regarding Reddit. It intimidates me too! But the Magnus Archives subreddit is surprisingly civil and has some really neat theories. I'm sure you'd be welcome if you ever decide to give it a try.  Also interesting to know that Gertrude never tried it on him. Did she know so much about the other powers and how to fight them while being strangely ignorant about her own power or did she just never want to know anything Elias knew/hid? Perhaps Gertrude felt such a tactic would be too confrontational? Elias said she never tried to 'properly' compel him which makes me think she did try to get info, just not in Jon's storm-the-castle approach. Also, if Elias truly answered Jon of his own free will then it's possible he cannot be compelled at all. Gertrude may have realized this early enough not to bother with it. I can see Gertrude reaching the point of self-sacrifice if it served a much greater good. She lost all of her assistants and Leitner thought she was lonely. Even if Gertrude understood her colleagues would eventually be used and discarded, that kind of life must become emotionally exhausting after awhile. Not to mention physically taxing with all the injuries she received battling the other powers. As career choices go, the Archivist is... pretty freaking terrible.  I hope the Institute offers excellent benefits or free coffee or something. Ha ha, I like the gaming equivalents! Hopefully the party keeps Daisy from going into a berserker rage 'cause she's got some serious control issues. I'm also happy she and Basira officially joined the team. Not going to lie, I still miss Sasha (and occasionally cry into my tinfoil hat that maybe she could still be alive somewhere even as each episode hammers home how very dead she is) but the other ladies are awesome too. Hooray for skin-suits. Not terrifying at all.  As for the remade world, the Stranger seems to be all about the familiar made wrong, so I don't think physical reality would be warped beyond recognition. Maybe just... off slightly? I don't know, if you were a super creepy possessed mannequin, what would your ideal world look like? |
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 12, 2018 1:21:34 GMT
Hi, liraven. Always nice to have more people around! I fear I might have to go there too for more episode-talk now, as uncomfortable as it makes me. Already made an account, just in case. >___< Thank you for the encouragement, it's highly appreciated! Hm, the way Elias talked about it sounded to me as if he wanted to talk, but also was compelled. He told Daisy that he wanted Jon to hear what he found out about her. So he always wanted to talk, even before, but thought it wasn't the time yet. Same reason why he didn't tell Jon everything yet. And maybe he was able to not just blurt everything out at once because the power makes you want to talk really badly, but one can hold off or still decide not to. Jude Perry was resisting at first after all. At least until it became too tempting to gloat and rave to the 'squishy, underwhelming underling' of an opposing power. XD Yeah, that would be a good explanation for Gertrude's actions had she known. Somehow I doubt the Archive has any benefits except for occasional, spooky spirit-possession-cuddles via cosmic eye-monster. So...rather the opposite? XD Hehe, gaming terms fit so well on so many occasions. ^^ After the discussions we had for the body-builder episode I think the Bone-turner seems likely to be attributed to the Stranger as well. I guess a lot of similar figures like Jared's victims/optimized people would run around. Also suddenly teeth-apples everywhere. XD |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 10:52:33 GMT
Agree prefer this forum too.
I need a relisten to end of season 1. But I recall thinking afterwards that Elias was very aware of Sasha.
I cannot adequately express how wonderful the creation of the world and nested storylines are!
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 12, 2018 16:07:56 GMT
Agree prefer this forum too. I need a relisten to end of season 1. But I recall thinking afterwards that Elias was very aware of Sasha. I cannot adequately express how wonderful the creation of the world and nested storylines are! I think he knew about Sasha too. From what we heard about the NotThem! my impression is that they can 'only' alter the memories and perceptions of those people who feel themselves they're close to the replaced person. Amy Patel had only a nodding acquaintance with Graham and she noticed that he was replaced (#3 Across the Street). Lucy Cooper had a very strained relationship with her mother and noticed her replacement (#77 The kind Mother). And Lawrence Moore rarely saw his cousin and had almost no contact with him. He noticed his replacement as well (#78 Distant Cousin). My guess is that the NotThem get the biggest kick out of the fear and confusion of the people who notice when said people are family members who theoretically should be close. Hence the malevolent joy the NotThem-mother showed once she realized the daughter was the one to see through the change. Jon, Martin and Tim were close to Sasha and didn't notice it wasn't her. But seeing how Elias said that the assistants and even friends are to be used and discarded, he likely never felt close to any of them and was able to see the thing for what it was. He might not have taken action at once because he wanted Jon to experience finding out, just like he's supposed to find out about the Unknowing himself. |
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liraven
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Post by liraven on Feb 13, 2018 0:40:09 GMT
Hm, the way Elias talked about it sounded to me as if he wanted to talk, but also was compelled... And maybe he was able to not just blurt everything out at once because the power makes you want to talk really badly, but one can hold off or still decide not to. Jude Perry was resisting at first after all. At least until it became too tempting to gloat and rave to the 'squishy, underwhelming underling' of an opposing power. XD That absolutely makes sense but something still bugs me. When Jon asked Michael Crew where he got his scar, Crew didn't say "I got struck by lightning as a kid. Now get out." He spoke in great detail about the agony of his injury, his terror of storms, and other deeply personal experiences. Same thing with Jude eventually, as you mentioned. But Elias's account of the murders is completely the opposite. It's brief and devoid of personal details. If the purpose of Jon's power is to compel the experience of events and not just cold facts, then I don't think we got that from Elias. He started off speaking more personally about free will and how the Institute twists people but kept getting interrupted. So... I guess I'm still not sure how successfully he was compelled because I don't know what qualifies as success. But I think an official statement from Elias regarding his own experiences would be pretty interesting. Ah thanks, I'll have to go check out that thread! And thanks for bringing up teeth-apples. Totally didn't want to sleep tonight anyway. I need a relisten to end of season 1. But I recall thinking afterwards that Elias was very aware of Sasha. I agree with you both regarding Elias and Sasha. It's kind of creepy wondering what he's known about this whole time. Remember when poor Martin was trapped in his home under siege from Prentiss for thirteen days? Did Elias know about that and do nothing? Well, nothing but watch I guess. Yeesh. I used to assume Beholding was the least evil of all the powers, but now I'm not so sure. Friends don't watch friends get eaten by worms. Friends stockpile fire extinguishers and corkscrews. |
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 13, 2018 1:31:43 GMT
That absolutely makes sense but something still bugs me. When Jon asked Michael Crew where he got his scar, Crew didn't say "I got struck by lightning as a kid. Now get out." He spoke in great detail about the agony of his injury, his terror of storms, and other deeply personal experiences. Same thing with Jude eventually, as you mentioned. But Elias's account of the murders is completely the opposite. It's brief and devoid of personal details.
If the purpose of Jon's power is to compel the experience of events and not just cold facts, then I don't think we got that from Elias. He started off speaking more personally about free will and how the Institute twists people but kept getting interrupted. So... I guess I'm still not sure how successfully he was compelled because I don't know what qualifies as success. But I think an official statement from Elias regarding his own experiences would be pretty interesting.Ah, that's true. Maybe this is the impact his own Beholding-power has. Then he certainly felt how Jon compelled him, but it didn't work as strongly. I guess in the long run we'll get more from Elias' perspective and I'm very excited for that to happen. :3 I suspect he knew well about that too. He did talk about Jonah Magnus doing nothing to help his 'friend' because he needed to watch and know. I really don't think he views anyone as a friend, simply because everyone around him is fodder for any number of experiences for himself and Beholding. In comparison Beholding still seems less awful than the others to me. But it's still a cosmic horror, so... Hehe, sorry not sorry. Here, have some funny pepper-faces to cheer the spook away.  /pepper-face-59024c303df78c5456c2c599.jpg)  Um...then again, maybe not the best cheering up for you now? <__< |
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liraven
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Post by liraven on Feb 13, 2018 23:42:54 GMT
Here, have some funny pepper-faces to cheer the spook away... Um...then again, maybe not the best cheering up for you now? <__< I appreciate the thought, but some things should just not have faces! Um... on topic... Yep, I think you're right. Hopefully Jon ignores Elias's advice on the matter, but I'm worried that'll become more difficult as events progress. To use your gaming analogy, I hope leveling up Jon's Seeing ability doesn't automatically reduce his Humanity. On another note, our earlier discussion about the Stranger's new world order got me thinking about something else. The powers are essentially eternal right? Which implies they can't be killed or completely vanquished from the world. If that's true, then maybe the best to hope for is just keeping them in balance. The Stranger and Beholding seem pretty well opposed to each other. If Jon successfully stops the Unknowing (presumably taking out a bunch of the Stranger's followers in the process), won't that clear the way for Beholding to become overpowered and do something equally terrible? |
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 14, 2018 3:52:36 GMT
We'll see what becomes of him, but I also reckon he'll have a hard time keeping his empathy. To adjust the gaming analogy in the thread from Twice as Bright: Archivist Level 1 = +10 Listening, +20 Stubborn, +20 Curiosity, -30 Survival Instinct --> Archivist Level 2 = +10 Listening, Compel Information --> Archivist Level ? = See secrets of people, - (xxx) Humanity Yeah, from the way Leitner described them (and that Elias confirmed they can't exist in our reality) it did sound as if the entities themselves can't be killed. Since there are very few people in the know who aren't marked themselves the ongoing war between the powers is necessary to cull the 'servant-population' of each entity to hinder them in their goals. So you're right, if the Beholding-followers are too successful the Eye can totally attempt a ritual of it's own. But then again, how would that look like? Hundreds of Archives filled with zealous bookworms who want to monitor everything? By snooping around and making everyone display their lives and secrets constantly and maybe install security cameras...everywhere... You know what, I guess Beholding has already shaped our real world into a likeness of its whimsy. XD  |
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Post by EyesOfATragedy on Feb 15, 2018 22:48:09 GMT
Ah, that's true. Maybe this is the impact his own Beholding-power has. Then he certainly felt how Jon compelled him, but it didn't work as strongly. I guess in the long run we'll get more from Elias' perspective and I'm very excited for that to happen. :3 I'm curious about how members of the same "god-team" interact with each other. Why has Elias continue to protect Jon, but had no problem killing Gertrude? Is it because of what Gertrude was going to do with her knowledge, and Jon just hasn't quite got there yet? Elias seems to be leading Jon down a path; perhaps he feels that Jon will come to a different conclusion than Gertrude. Or, just throwing it out there, is it possible that Gertrude was not "marked" in the same way that Jon is? And I like your theory about Elias being able to withstand being fully compelled. That would make a lot of sense, seeing as how Elias continued to make the point that he was speaking of his own free will. |
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Post by hyoscyamus on Feb 16, 2018 4:49:50 GMT
I'm curious about how members of the same "god-team" interact with each other. Why has Elias continue to protect Jon, but had no problem killing Gertrude? Is it because of what Gertrude was going to do with her knowledge, and Jon just hasn't quite got there yet? Elias seems to be leading Jon down a path; perhaps he feels that Jon will come to a different conclusion than Gertrude. Or, just throwing it out there, is it possible that Gertrude was not "marked" in the same way that Jon is? And I like your theory about Elias being able to withstand being fully compelled. That would make a lot of sense, seeing as how Elias continued to make the point that he was speaking of his own free will.I think at this point it's quite clear that he killed Gertrude because Leitner and her planned to destroy the Archive. If it's true that all of them will die should the Archive go down this could almost be considered self-defense and saving everyone else. Or just serving Beholding's will. After all, what cosmic horror wouldn't get rid of any servant who plans to destroy it and it's resources? You're right, he's definitely leading Jon onto the path from the get go. But regarding the marking, for now at least, it seems to me that the person in question is the one who decides where it goes from there. Elias told Jon he may not have wanted it, but very much chose this since he kept asking questions and sought answers relentlessly. Martin wants to know as well and reads statements while Tim wants to get away and is pretty close to becoming a victim instead of a true servant. Gertrude was probably similar to Jon in many ways character-wise. Maybe Elias wants to make sure Jon wont go rogue like her by keeping a closer eye on his initiation (no pun intended). What do you think, is everyone dying should 'the Heart' of the Archive, aka Elias, die normal for the Archives? It seems counterproductive. That's why I think Elias put himself in this special position. There were a lot of pointers that hinted at the space under Jon's office, like the dream seer who said all lines lead to Gertrude's office; the man who was possessed to dig who tried to claw his way under the floor of the office. Maybe whatever binds Elias to the Archive and everyone to him is there? |
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I hope the Institute offers excellent benefits or free coffee or something.
As for the remade world, the Stranger seems to be all about the familiar made wrong, so I don't think physical reality would be warped beyond recognition. Maybe just... off slightly? I don't know, if you were a super creepy possessed mannequin, what would your ideal world look like?
