elbereth2502
Member of the Order of the Quill
I believe that junk food taste so good because it's bad for you
Posts: 154
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Post by elbereth2502 on Jun 7, 2018 10:56:03 GMT
Having said that as a bleeding heart lefty I naturally have a ton of concerns about the penal system (in both our world and the RQG world) so even then I think it can be quite a complex issue. I do not know anything about the penal System in the UK, since I do not live there. But I myself am not the best friend of only going to jail, there are many Options to take responibility. But that someone covers up for you, so you do not have to face any Penalty the state has in store for you is wrong, I think. And I think I said it best on twitter, just because Hamid is wrong it doesn't necessarily mean that the others are right. And this is exactly the point I am arguing about with myself. And the worst thing is, that we - the listeners - at the Moment do not even know if Hamid's brother did anything wrong. And now I have this Dilemma until Wednesday.
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lego
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Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 10:58:25 GMT
For what it's worth I think that Hamid is in the wrong in this situation. It's a tough line to walk sometimes to play a character and do your best to represent them when you disagree with them. And I love Hamid and it's very hard to separate what I feel from what he does sometimes, so it's very easy for me to forget that he's in the wrong! Not to mention that he's even more protective of his family right now than he might be the rest of the time. Having said that as a bleeding heart lefty I naturally have a ton of concerns about the penal system (in both our world and the RQG world) so even then I think it can be quite a complex issue. And I think I said it best on twitter, just because Hamid is wrong it doesn't necessarily mean that the others are right. Thats fair. I think Paladins see the world a bit more black and white than perhaps is good, even when they try not to, just by the nature of being in a world where they can detect if someone is evil or not. Also, its kind of hard to even say whether there is even a right answer here at all, nothing is going to work for everybody.
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lego
Member of the Order of the Quill
Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 11:01:41 GMT
Having said that as a bleeding heart lefty I naturally have a ton of concerns about the penal system (in both our world and the RQG world) so even then I think it can be quite a complex issue. I do not know anything about the penal System in the UK, since I do not live there. But I myself am not the best friend of only going to jail, there are many Options to take responibility. But that someone covers up for you, so you do not have to face any Penalty the state has in store for you is wrong, I think. And I think I said it best on twitter, just because Hamid is wrong it doesn't necessarily mean that the others are right. And this is exactly the point I am arguing about with myself. And the worst thing is, that we - the listeners - at the Moment do not even know if Hamid's brother did anything wrong. And now I have this Dilemma until Wednesday. Despite living here, I dont know a lot about our penal system, and i agree that going to prison might not be the best, especially as we dont know the context of what he might (or might not!) have done, but I feel that theres a difference between penance and punishment, and Saleh Jr should be punished (or not) for what he did, he shouldnt be allowed to get away without any consequences. (and no, working to help people is not a consequence)
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lego
Member of the Order of the Quill
Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 11:04:24 GMT
Having said that as a bleeding heart lefty I naturally have a ton of concerns about the penal system (in both our world and the RQG world) so even then I think it can be quite a complex issue. I do not know anything about the penal System in the UK, since I do not live there. But I myself am not the best friend of only going to jail, there are many Options to take responibility. But that someone covers up for you, so you do not have to face any Penalty the state has in store for you is wrong, I think. And I think I said it best on twitter, just because Hamid is wrong it doesn't necessarily mean that the others are right. And this is exactly the point I am arguing about with myself. And the worst thing is, that we - the listeners - at the Moment do not even know if Hamid's brother did anything wrong. And now I have this Dilemma until Wednesday. I think at this point, part of this discussion is less about what should actually happen to Saleh Jr given he might not have done anything, and more about what Hamid would have done had it actually occurred.
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elbereth2502
Member of the Order of the Quill
I believe that junk food taste so good because it's bad for you
Posts: 154
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Post by elbereth2502 on Jun 7, 2018 11:06:03 GMT
I am not quite agreeing with you that working to help People is not a consequence, but I think that discussion would have to go far deeper than I forum discussion should go. But it is not a good consequence if you can just "wiggle out" from federal punishment and avoid every consequence they could have for you.
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lego
Member of the Order of the Quill
Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 11:12:00 GMT
I am not quite agreeing with you that working to help People is not a consequence, but I think that discussion would have to go far deeper than I forum discussion should go. But it is not a good consequence if you can just "wiggle out" from federal punishment and avoid every consequence they could have for you. Youre probably right, and I'm not really educated to discuss this further than simply what I feel. I personally feel that penance is more important than punishment, but that its not necessarily enough on its own.
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Post by dangerfield on Jun 7, 2018 11:33:12 GMT
I think we also have an interesting problem here in that the world economy has been massively destabilised thanks to switching off Mr Ceiling, and I can't see that having confidence in one of its largest financial institutions be degraded further by the boss going down for murder would be overly helpful!
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lego
Member of the Order of the Quill
Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 12:41:00 GMT
yeah. I somewhat admire the sacrifice Saleh Sr is making for his son, but its a bad decision.
Hes leaving his company in the hands of his possibly competent, but certainly inexperienced daughter, at a very unstable time for the company. AND hes leaving his already grieving family to sort this out on his own. I really don't think leaving his wife and children is a great idea right now. This may be better for one of his sons, but he has 4 other children who need him.
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elbereth2502
Member of the Order of the Quill
I believe that junk food taste so good because it's bad for you
Posts: 154
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Post by elbereth2502 on Jun 7, 2018 12:48:15 GMT
He especially is leaving the bank to his daughter who told Hamid that she wanted to get out of the family business, let's not Forget that.
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julsbo
Travelling Wordsmith
Posts: 30
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Post by julsbo on Jun 7, 2018 13:04:42 GMT
I hadn’t realised how Relativist I’ve become until this episode. 🤔
Burrowing a bit deeper into my reaction, I think the things that bothered me about Grizzop & Sasha’s responses to Hamid were:
- both of them have been with Hamid long enough to know he is not generally amoral (quite the opposite!) - they have been regularly witnessing the family’s dysfunction since they arrived in Egypt - they know the family is heavily involved in the banking system that they’ve just helped to take down globally (well, Sasha rather than Grizzop, admittedly) - they have just attended the funeral of Hamid’s sister whose killing they actually witnessed (FGS!!) so even as third parties they should be aware that the family may not be acting entirely normally - they have just seen the authoritarian father taken into custody for Salah’s crime, and the media attention this had generated
Now, surely the sensible reaction would be to ask Hamid how Salah can be expected to recognise his horrendous judgement, the crime that resulted from it, atone for all of this, and THEN emerge a better and more responsible person if his father takes responsibility at a family level rather than allowing it to be a personal one. But that’s not what happened.
Instead, it all became a full-on harranging of someone who is already in a bit of an emotional tizz (even Azu, who’s been a party member for all of 5 minutes clocked Hamid’s mental state within seconds of meeting him). And the sneering “oh of course you would do this, you were born rich” is not only unconstructive, it’s unfair. Hamid hasn’t chosen his family’s wealth any more than he’s chosen their dysfunction. To go all therapy-speak, he’s starting to learn that he can control who he is and how he reacts to his family, but he’s really only just started to do that. Expecting him to jettison every scrap of his prior conditioning is a bit of a big ask, especially in the rather traumatic circumstances.
So: basically, Grizzop would make a terrible therapist. Hamid needs a therapist, and may be starting to realise it. Sasha really needs a therapist, but is so far from realising it she’d be more likely to knife the therapist for asking too many personal questions. And Azu... may actually be a potential therapist, if she works out how to get there.
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akelis
Member of the Order of the Quill
Constantly Failing Saving Throws Against Gravity
Posts: 102
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Post by akelis on Jun 7, 2018 13:36:18 GMT
I'm still a bit surprised Erin Fairhands (?) was actually useful for something! Hey! Eren Fairhands is the BEST HEALER IN THE UNIVERSE Azu probably has a poster of him over her bed. Fan art time, did we get a good description of Fairhands 'cause I'm gonna make this poster art happen in classic 90s Teen Hearts magazine style! I feel like Hamid suffers more than a bit from affluenza and I'm trying so hard to see this through a lens of him both being raised unknowingly having privilege and that he believes people to genuinely be good at their core. I suffer from seeing things like AzzOp (see, I got to use it in context and it works!) because I'm convinced that one of the modern equivalents to a Paladin is a social worker. Dammit I have feelings about things in a fantasy realm and it made me burn dinner because I was laughing too much at my podcast. #DontCookAndPodcast
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lego
Member of the Order of the Quill
Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 13:42:04 GMT
julsboThis is definitely fair. I think for Sasha especially, she has conversely grown up to learn that people with money are bad. Not saying this is true or fair, and shes become a bit better at this through knowing Hamid, but also shes not used to trusting people, doesn't know what a family looks like, and is just really not in a good place in any way, so whilst she is not being helpful, its understandable? For Grizzop, his world is very black and white. Whether he realises it is or not, his morality is very stark. This is probably partly with growing up in a church where evil is literally a thing they can find and destroy, but it is there, and he is not necessarily being as helpful as he could. Azu would probably be great at helping if she stopped rolling 1s
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lego
Member of the Order of the Quill
Posts: 127
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Post by lego on Jun 7, 2018 13:45:56 GMT
Hey! Eren Fairhands is the BEST HEALER IN THE UNIVERSE Azu probably has a poster of him over her bed. Fan art time, did we get a good description of Fairhands 'cause I'm gonna make this poster art happen in classic 90s Teen Hearts magazine style! I feel like Hamid suffers more than a bit from affluenza and I'm trying so hard to see this through a lens of him both being raised unknowingly having privilege and that he believes people to genuinely be good at their core. I suffer from seeing things like AzzOp (see, I got to use it in context and it works!) because I'm convinced that one of the modern equivalents to a Paladin is a social worker. Dammit I have feelings about things in a fantasy realm and it made me burn dinner because I was laughing too much at my podcast. #DontCookAndPodcast Whats affluenza? I think I'm trying to remember that Hamid is generally trying to be good, and whether we agree with what he does or not, it comes from a position of purely wanting to help and look after his brother.
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Post by dangerfield on Jun 7, 2018 13:54:47 GMT
Affluenza is definitely the word, Akelis. Hamid's obviously not a bad dude. But he's grown up inured to the kind of consequence some of the other characters have had to learn early and brutal lessons about. It colours these kind of conflicts beautifully.
That's a really good point about Grizzop and his approach to evil. He's being too dogmatic to be helpful at the moment. Azu's only known the group five minutes, so it's only natural for her to go along with the most familiar perspective - the other Paladin. And, to be fair, all she knows about Hamid at this point is that his family are apparently really good at covering up inconvenient murders.
I do think it's unfair on Sasha to expect her to react well to this. We know that her approach to criminal justice is... flexible, but she has excellent reasons for reacting so strongly to the idea of a group choosing someone expendable to take the fall for a criminal action. It's been barely any time since her own bereavement, and then finding out that she's dying - or worse!
Please do not ask me to guess how many hours a day I spend thinking about this podcast.
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akelis
Member of the Order of the Quill
Constantly Failing Saving Throws Against Gravity
Posts: 102
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Post by akelis on Jun 7, 2018 14:00:59 GMT
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